Friends,
I haven't written in a while, I know. But I am still here.
In the Dark Victorian group, an individual named Rober1236 Jua popped up and asked, "Is racism considered part of the Dark Victorian aesthetic?"
Naturally, I said, "Of course not, DV is about penny bloods, Dracula, Poe, etc. not racism." Thus began an argument this morning over how I am a Nazi because I believe that group owners (and shop owners, bar owners, etc.) are legally allowed to remove people from groups for discussing racism - or whatever else (as I noted, people have legally been removed from malls simply for wearing anti-Bush or anti-Iraq-war t-shirts).
The interesting thing is, I viewed this person's blog and perhaps this is what exactly he was trying to refer to - but he did not really seem to refer to that, and most of the conversation was centered around why I (and others involved in the discussion, like Mr. Writer and Mr. Benmergui.
I think it is an interesting question, to be honest, especially given DV fondness for horrors and terror. I won't deny that I have a bit of a thing for villains like Jack the Ripper, Burke and Hare, Major Weir, Deacon Brodie, etc. and of course the fake ones like Fantomas, Sweeney Todd, Spring Heeled Jack, etc.
Why is it that a fondness for horror, death, murder, cannibalism, etc. is more acceptable? Why do I find the idea of grave-robbing to be fun and amusing (in an RP/SL setting, of course!), but still feel a tad queasy at Confederate Flags? It's an interesting psychological question... but this individual didn't really raise that in the discussion. He just made it clear he had no concept of US law and that he thought I was a "Nazi" because I did.
Alas.
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7 comments:
I don't feel a "tad queasy" in regards to Confederate flags and uniforms...I have a rather visceral reaction and for good reason given my RL heritage. I have had to look at that flag--my neighbor's--for a while now and I DID recognize it, (being the history buff that I am), but what to say or do?
Caledon, for instance, is what I would like to think we all "wish" the Victorian era was like. An idealized version. Perhaps the gent's question wasn't appropriate for the Dark Vic forum, but it does pose interesting questions...
Oh, understood. I fear I became a bit used to the symbols after growing up in FL. Confederate flags were everywhere, with the insane "Southern Pride" garbage.
"I am a Nazi because I believe that group owners (and shop owners, bar owners, etc.) are legally allowed to remove people from groups for discussing racism - or whatever else"
So you really believe that business owners can ban people from their stores for having discussions of race? A hotel owner could remove people for talking about Africa.
Do you really believe that? Sorry but if you are that sick you are that sick.
I am bit surprised you would find anyone bothered by such a repugnant point of view.
Also are you saying that people CAN remove others from public areas for talking about race in America, actually not true its called discrimination. Also the legal status of asking people to leave public spaces for POLITICAL PARTY T-SHIRTS, is a bit different than race.
But I suggest you test this. You open a bar and start kicking blacks and Hispanics out for talking about race and see what happens to you.
30 years ago when we envisioned the Internet we did not much think of it as a place where people would be removing others for discussing racisms, or worrying about which forums were PROPER places for discussion of conditions in Africa or not.
As for why your interested in some old books, who cares. You clearly don't give a damn about the most important issues of your age, who cares what books you like.
The entire incident has been shocking to me beyond anything I could imagine. I am happy to see you tolerance for racism is so high, but it is far from a virtue.
But I notice you nazis accuse me of griefing, well bring in up before Linden Labs. I would be happy to deal with it there an not in the blogosphere.
My Dear Rober1236 Jua....you obviously don't know Mr. Goodliffe at all to say such slanderous things about him. Personally, I think he meant that store owners should be able to ban people for being racist. Sadly, racism does exist, even in SL, but then so do many other things that we all fight against in RL as well. Before you start shooting from the hip, maybe make sure you are clear about what the person is saying, maybe by contacting them and actually speaking with them directly?
My dear Christine McAllister obviously you are selectively reading puck's post. He clearly states that someone can be removed from groups for discussing racism.
First there was an act of radical racism, someone removing a group of people for discussing racism.
Now this group is circling the wagons, first saying that racism is wrong but we can decide when it can be spoken about.
Now Christine McAllister says that there was no racism at all.
The fact is simple, Lapin kicked out a group of about 4 people for having a polite conversation between them on the issues of Africa. When I dared complain about it to these Victorians I was flamed repeatedly.
No we see endless effort to white wash what had happened. A community without justice or equality: In SL you can form a little cult that lets you do what you want. The experience has made it clear to me that SL can not be used as a just platform. In this case a group of people find themselves defending racism from various different sides. Hell Zoe Connolly even said that Lapin can't be racist because she had cancer!!!!!
I am sorry she had cancer, and which she would respect freedom and dignity of other humans.
The facts, the following conversation is what I was eject from the SIM for and why I became so angry and continue to be so angry with these disgusting people.
This is the actual conversation, I notice many of the "gang" keep moving what happen around but these are the facts.
Since this time I have learned it violates Caledon governing principles, and so it makes sense why I was bullied for it. The group is fractured internally so I am attack for my free expression on a critical issues.
Well read and decide.
[14:43] Marcus Tairov: Welcome Mr. Jua.
[14:43] Autopilotpatty Poppy: Hell Miss Hykova
[14:43] Damyn Janick: Greeting Mr. Jua and Miss Hykova
[14:43] You: Greetings all
[14:43] Marcus Tairov rummages for his glasses, can't see well
[14:43] Autopilotpatty Poppy: I missed both of them for a bit
[14:43] Autopilotpatty Poppy: lol
[14:43] Violet Schnabel: Hello Miss Hykova and Mr Jua
[14:44] Autopilotpatty Poppy: I don't believe we've met, Miss Hykova of Mr.Jua
[14:44] Marcus Tairov: Ahh much better
[14:44] LadyGray Hykova: Well then it is a unique honour
[14:44] Khannea Suntzu is Offline
[14:44] LadyGray Hykova: Mr Jua here has been good enough to be my escort here
[14:44] Minna Kurka is Offline
[14:44] Marcus Tairov: A few folks get together and soon, we have a party!
[14:44] Autopilotpatty Poppy: oh wonderful
[14:44] LadyGray Hykova: I am not a regualr visitor to these area
[14:44] Autopilotpatty Poppy: I do recall hearing you speak about Africa?
[14:45] LadyGray Hykova: I am an African Princess
[14:45] LadyGray Hykova: Jua here is my servant
[14:45] Marcus Tairov: Actually this is my first time up this high in Tanglewood. I had no idea all of this was here
[14:45] Autopilotpatty Poppy: oh my goodness an this is but one of about 35 sims that make up Caledon
[14:45] Autopilotpatty Poppy: It's a pleasure to meet you both
[14:45] You: Yes one could say I am almost her slave
[14:45] Damyn Janick: I wiwsh to visit Afric soon Miss Hykova, I have heard wonderful things
[14:45] LadyGray Hykova: Thank you very much
[14:46] LadyGray Hykova: It is the Mother of Culture
[14:46] Autopilotpatty Poppy: I believe there are two Africa sims, if I'm not mistaken
[14:46] LadyGray Hykova: the source of the Nile
[14:46] LadyGray Hykova: 2 Africas?
[14:46] Autopilotpatty Poppy: yes, such a beautiful country
[14:46] LadyGray Hykova: There are a million Africas
[14:46] Marcus Tairov: I haven't had a chance to journey to Africa...however, I have seen India.
[14:46] Autopilotpatty Poppy: oh dear... ?
[14:46] Autopilotpatty Poppy: I didn't know
[14:47] LadyGray Hykova: Another colony of your Queen Victoria
[14:47] LadyGray Hykova: and here Steam Empire]
[14:47] LadyGray Hykova: In her Kingdom I am just a guess
[14:48] Autopilotpatty Poppy: I see. very ineresting, indeed
[14:48] Marcus Tairov: Oh but even though we have respect for Her Majesty, Caledon is very much..independent
[14:48] You: My lady you are so much more than that
[14:48] Steel cane (No over-the-shoulder pose): 3666 bytes free
[14:48] LadyGray Hykova: Whit skin and neo-gothic builds are always the substance of the wealth of ruling the world
[14:49] LadyGray Hykova: I poud point out that few Africans can ever come here
[14:49] Marcus Tairov: If you have any respect for Victorian, or for steampunk, or art and culture in any form, then you are all ready part of Caledon.
[14:49] LadyGray Hykova: thus my dress
[14:49] Autopilotpatty Poppy: do you have a landmark you'd care to share LadyGray?
[14:49] LadyGray Hykova: II am landless here
[14:49] LadyGray Hykova: there is an American in SL
[14:49] LadyGray Hykova: There is a vision of Victorian England
[14:50] LadyGray Hykova: but no Africa
[14:50] Marcus Tairov: Thats what is good about Caledon, you don't need land to be part of it
[14:50] LadyGray Hykova: Africa tonight is silent
[14:50] LadyGray Hykova: no part of the net
[14:50] LadyGray Hykova: that is why I mourn
[14:50] You: My lady is serious about problems
[14:50] Marcus Tairov: Then you should change that Miss Hykova
[14:50] Damyn Janick: Miss, there are those of us who mourn for that as well
[14:50] Beq Janus is Offline
[14:50] Damyn Janick: and wish to change it
[14:50] You: but perhaps these creative people do not have the power to change things
[14:51] LadyGray Hykova: I will have to look
[14:51] Marcus Tairov: Not at that level, but everyone has the power to make change.
[14:51] Damyn Janick: Africa is no less a part of the world than Vicotrian England
[14:51] LadyGray Hykova: But as for Afric on the web
[14:51] Autopilotpatty Poppy gave you Africa, Africa (47, 209, 22).
[14:51] Marcus Tairov: A whisper on the wind can make a world
[14:51] You: why thank you
[14:51] Autopilotpatty Poppy: yvw
[14:51] LadyGray Hykova: It is a dark place for electircity
[14:51] Marcus Tairov: Thank you for the landmark.
[14:51] LadyGray Hykova: people struggle to eat
[14:51] Autopilotpatty Poppy: yw
[14:51] Damyn Janick: ty
[14:52] You: I think what the lady hopes to say it that we should all be aware of how race is forming SL
[14:52] You: what races have access to the resources to be here
[14:52] You: class, race and history form SL
[14:52] Marcus Tairov: Greetings Miss LeFavre and Miss Cleanslate
[14:52] Damyn Janick nods
[14:52] Gwynna Cleanslate: good evening
[14:52] Gwynna Cleanslate: !
[14:52] LadyGray Hykova: Thank you I am not so diplomatic
[14:52] Violet Schnabel nods
[14:52] Anouk Lefavre: Greetings!
[14:53] Fauve Aeon: good evening Miss Cleanslate, hello again Miss Lefavre
[14:53] Autopilotpatty Poppy: Ah... I believe that all races have equal access to SL resources. It is an amazing world we have chosen to be a part of and most of us are hoping it will help heal the wounds of the world
[14:53] SumatraBouffant Beaumont is Offline
[14:53] Anouk Lefavre smiles
[14:53] Autopilotpatty Poppy: Hello again Miss Lefavre
[14:53] Anouk Lefavre: Hello again Ms. Aeron!
[14:53] Anouk Lefavre: Hello Ms. Poppy!
[14:53] You: I fear that access is better in America, the EU, and Japan
[14:53] Autopilotpatty Poppy: Hello Gwynna, nice to see you again
[14:54] You: Few people in Africa can come to this place
[14:54] Damyn Janick nods politely to Miss Lafavre and Miss Cleanslate
[14:54] Autopilotpatty Poppy: very much so
[14:54] Autopilotpatty Poppy: Yes, I agree with you there Mr. Jua
[14:54] You: Do you think Kenya has good broadband
[14:54] You: or Darfur has many PCs
[14:54] Dender Dinzeo is Online
[14:54] Marcus Tairov: It is. People in Africa need food and shelter before they can have a computer and the infrastructure needed for it.
[14:54] Autopilotpatty Poppy: no, I'm sure they don't
[14:54] You: children hope to go to school to lean
[14:54] You: Yes
[14:54] Autopilotpatty Poppy: yes
[14:54] Damyn Janick: and yet why are we here?
[14:55] LadyGray Hykova: Africas need will keep if frm this palce
[14:55] LadyGray Hykova: this place that is gorwing so fast it will be
[14:55] Damyn Janick: because we are missing that sense of community that many Africans have
[14:55] LadyGray Hykova: Jua what is that word you use?
[14:55] You: A singluarlity my lady
[14:55] Marcus Tairov: There are many groups even in SL that generate benifits to assist Africa
[14:55] LadyGray Hykova: Yes a singularity with white skin
[14:55] Marcus Tairov: benefits that is.
[14:56] Autopilotpatty Poppy: yes.. that landmark I gave you is used only for generating funds to help African children
[14:56] You: I do not believe the lady says that people who are lucky enough to live in the US or EU
[14:56] You: do not care for Africa or are bad people
[14:56] You: they just have access where others don't
[14:56] Marcus Tairov: Our New Years Eve benefit, all of it, went to give homes to folks in Africa in fact.
[14:56] You: That is most admirable
[14:57] You: The problems are not with the goodness of people here
[14:57] You: of which I think highly
[14:57] You: but social forces beyond our control
[14:57] You decline Quadrapop Tree, The Canopy, Pelinor (183, 139, 46) from A group member named quadrapop Lane.
[14:57] You decline Octaine Finale - Wild Animal Print Contest from A group member named quadrapop Lane.
[14:57] You decline New Group/Neue Gruppe from A group member named Elsa Helgerud.
[14:57] Marcus Tairov: Yes.
[14:57] Autopilotpatty Poppy: at the AFtrica Africa sim... I believe they have held 3 huge events since it opened this year and it continues yet today. It's a wonderful place to visit and to learn a bit about the needs of the children there
[14:57] LadyGray Hykova: I only wnat people to be awa of what is happening
[14:57] Beq Janus is Online
[14:58] Marcus Tairov: I agree.
[14:58] LadyGray Hykova: aware
[14:58] Autopilotpatty Poppy: yes, of course
[14:58] Autopilotpatty Poppy: It is good that you can get out and about and do this important work, LadyGray
[14:58] You: Yes we have to think about the social part of this wonderful place we are all building
[14:59] Autopilotpatty Poppy: indeed....
This lead to our eviction and banning by two individuals:
Nicholas Garrigus
and
Lapin Paris
Both refuse to explain why, but its a sad sign of how rascists are gain influence in space in Second Life, determined to make it say and sound as it wants.
I have since read something of an account penned by Lapin Paris: it seems I am Hitler.
Reading over the text again I can see what a racist would be so anger and why she removed us all from the group.
These are the facts, no more room for retelling or people speaking for each other. Though Zoe Connolly when confronted with these facts still took Lapin's side creatively saying "she had cancer"
Reading through this conversation we see that the people are polite, very intelligent, very kind to each other and very positive about SL.
I have read this discussion over and over again trying to find why Ms. Paris got pissed over and why this group has reacted this way to everyone in it.
This is not the slightest offence or insult in the discussion. In fact it is far far better and more civil than most talk and well within the founding principles of Caledon.
And there is nothing stupid about it. Puck's posts are stupid, this dicussion was SL at its best.
There is no escape that the motivation of Paris could only be her hatred of blacks. To censor a conversation like this is racism and that can not be escaped. He follow up behaviour proves beyond any rational question that she is racism. Its a simple matter.
What is sad is how SL community seems to work. The DV group, who all really just have illusion of each other, rallied about a member who should probably have been given a lecture. The act of racism, very unsettling to the group was washed away in a collect attack on me. I was threatened with being brought to SL for griefing when DV had violated the guiding principles of SL and Caledon, whoch all don't mean a fucking thing.
This experience of one person, who is sick converting a group of unrelated people living in an imaginary world in to a band of racists censors and fools is sad.
SL does promote an illusion, but it also provides a objective record of things said and done. The desire to form Paris in to the victim here is an utter failure.
To speculate, I think there are a lot of very sick people who can't be active in RL and live in SL. There tiny group means far more to them than any principles. When one of this members, a sickly house bound person presenting her/him self as a lovely blond the entire group rallies around her, tries to create an illusion.
But the record is there. Read the discussion, its SL discourse at its best. If you support banning this kind of discourse between adults in anywhere in SL your are a fascist and a racists and nothing can change that.
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